Aloha from Kauai, Hawaii
This is a new road for me. Not sure if this is posted in the right spot? I live on an island that is a blank canvas. There is no AREDN network of any kind on the island of Kauai that I am aware of. I run a string of Allstarlink VOIP 2m & 70cm repeaters on Raspberry Pi3's around the perimeter of the island that are linked via the internet and to the rest of the state and the world. I would like to link the repeaters on this rock using the AREDN technology and not have to rely solely on the internet or a lot of high dollar link repeaters.
Having gone through Hurricane Iniki (Sept. 11, 1992), I see things and understand things that those that haven't experienced these kind of events, miss. So with that in mind I have a lot of things going here. I have a Winlink RMS Trimode setup running on 15, 20, and 40 meters with Pactor3, Ardop and VARA HF (No Winmor). I'm also playing with VARA FM on RMS Packet with great results. I understand this can all be tied through AREDN Mesh so it looks to me to be the icing on the cake so to speak.
My problem, I'm not an "IT Brain" but do have friends that are and are willing to get involved. I am a hardware guy and know how to install it. I played with mesh on the WRT54G routers a little and had a tunnel to Oahu for a while but that is the extent of my knowledge and gave it up when I saw it wasn't going to do what I want to do. Enter AREDN!
I was told by one of my friends Jesse, WH6AV on Maui who is an IT Brain, to pick up the MikroTik hap ac lite. I did and after some issues of not being able to get the AREDN firmware to load with Windoze or linux, I was finally able to after scouring the forum here and using the suggestion of placing a old dinosaur Netgear 10/100 hub between the computer and the MikroTik. I was able to get it to load up and running. So there is now 2 of us in the State of Hawaii, Jesse on Maui and mine on Kauai. Jesse helped me set up a tunnel between me and him.
Well, All the stuff he's connected to is nice but this is not the direction I want to go. It's all fine and good but when the fecal matter strikes the rotating oscillator and the internet goes down, I'm still an island. So what I'm asking is for someone to point me in the right direction and give me a good shove. Since I'm just getting started, What advice would y'all give on the next pieces of gear I need to invest in. I don't want to spend money on stuff I don't need.
Because the towns run around the perimeter of the island and there are inaccessible mountains in the middle, I need to have a plan. I am on the south shore and I need to run east and west to extend coverage. The road ends at the west and north shores. Between them is the Napali coast, also inaccessible. Towns are also separated by mountains so linking them is going to be a challenge.
Sorry for the long dissertation but I wanted to give some perspective of what I'm dealing with. I have a number of hams on the island that have the same vision so it's not like I'm doing this by myself. I see redundancy as a plus and I think once the ball gets rolling that it will run like wild fire.
It's going to be an adventure! All comments appreciated. if you want to take it offline, I'm good on QRZ.com
73 & Aloha,
Jim NH6HI
This is a new road for me. Not sure if this is posted in the right spot? I live on an island that is a blank canvas. There is no AREDN network of any kind on the island of Kauai that I am aware of. I run a string of Allstarlink VOIP 2m & 70cm repeaters on Raspberry Pi3's around the perimeter of the island that are linked via the internet and to the rest of the state and the world. I would like to link the repeaters on this rock using the AREDN technology and not have to rely solely on the internet or a lot of high dollar link repeaters.
Having gone through Hurricane Iniki (Sept. 11, 1992), I see things and understand things that those that haven't experienced these kind of events, miss. So with that in mind I have a lot of things going here. I have a Winlink RMS Trimode setup running on 15, 20, and 40 meters with Pactor3, Ardop and VARA HF (No Winmor). I'm also playing with VARA FM on RMS Packet with great results. I understand this can all be tied through AREDN Mesh so it looks to me to be the icing on the cake so to speak.
My problem, I'm not an "IT Brain" but do have friends that are and are willing to get involved. I am a hardware guy and know how to install it. I played with mesh on the WRT54G routers a little and had a tunnel to Oahu for a while but that is the extent of my knowledge and gave it up when I saw it wasn't going to do what I want to do. Enter AREDN!
I was told by one of my friends Jesse, WH6AV on Maui who is an IT Brain, to pick up the MikroTik hap ac lite. I did and after some issues of not being able to get the AREDN firmware to load with Windoze or linux, I was finally able to after scouring the forum here and using the suggestion of placing a old dinosaur Netgear 10/100 hub between the computer and the MikroTik. I was able to get it to load up and running. So there is now 2 of us in the State of Hawaii, Jesse on Maui and mine on Kauai. Jesse helped me set up a tunnel between me and him.
Well, All the stuff he's connected to is nice but this is not the direction I want to go. It's all fine and good but when the fecal matter strikes the rotating oscillator and the internet goes down, I'm still an island. So what I'm asking is for someone to point me in the right direction and give me a good shove. Since I'm just getting started, What advice would y'all give on the next pieces of gear I need to invest in. I don't want to spend money on stuff I don't need.
Because the towns run around the perimeter of the island and there are inaccessible mountains in the middle, I need to have a plan. I am on the south shore and I need to run east and west to extend coverage. The road ends at the west and north shores. Between them is the Napali coast, also inaccessible. Towns are also separated by mountains so linking them is going to be a challenge.
Sorry for the long dissertation but I wanted to give some perspective of what I'm dealing with. I have a number of hams on the island that have the same vision so it's not like I'm doing this by myself. I see redundancy as a plus and I think once the ball gets rolling that it will run like wild fire.
It's going to be an adventure! All comments appreciated. if you want to take it offline, I'm good on QRZ.com
73 & Aloha,
Jim NH6HI
Sounds like you have a plan, Jim! For starters, you need to use one of the online tools and see if your sites are line of sight with each other. That's almost mandatory with this stuff. If not, you'll have to find sites in-between to set up as relay sites. We stayed last month at Poipu so I'm aware of the challenges you face.
If you're going strictly point to point, any of the Ubiquiti or Mikrotik dishes will work fine (longer distances need bigger dishes). In an ideal case you DON'T put them all the same channel; sites A& B go on one channel, then another pair of dishes on a different channel go between B & C. You get the idea.
And if you expect to have any users within line of sight of any of the sites, plan on implementing one or more sector antennas/radios at each of those sites (on a third channel :-) )
How's that for starters?
73
Orv W6BI
I just uploaded a short presentation on installing AREDN firmware using Windows that might help other local hams get started.
Nicely done, Randy! Thank you!
You might want to add this to the several Mikrotik threads here - wish I had this when I did my first three installs on the "Swiis Army Knife of Mesh Networking".
- Don - AA7AU
Interesting post, good luck, wish I had your Winlink knowledge and experience as that's next on my list to get addressed.
Anyway, I have some experience running AllStar over AREDN and thought I should share. I have a few Pis, loaded with HamVoip and configured with a "public" node# on the first NIC (eth0) which is connected to an internet linked network (standard AllStar stuff). However, each of those PIs can have a second node# and I've used a "private" node# for those. I use a USB-Ethernet adapter plugged into the PI USB and the cable goes to my mesh network. Properly configured, that PI has a separate connection to both the internet and to my mesh, with no worries of digital traffic bridging over the two. But, I then can "bridge" the public and private node AllStar traffic together using either a standard *3 type connect or a "permanent" connect to join the nodes in that PI. Connect to the public node and you're automatically connected into my private node network (only problem is bubble charts don't like it).
The only hassle is you currently still need to manually edit your [nodes] stanza in each PI's rpt.conf for the routing for all private nodes on each of your HamVoip instance (see HamVoip documentation).
Once done, you can even use Supermon from another LAN device to manage/monitor your remote nodes and control the connections as you wish.
If your case, if you wanted you could just use your best public node connection to "bridge" in for the rest of the world (while it still exists) and then connect all the rest of your nodes as permanent private nodes over the 10.0.0.0/8 addressing on your mesh. Remember, it's all just digital packets being routed by networking rules. The secret sauce is just adding that second private node and the second NIC (for mesh) to each PI.
Of course, you need to build at least part of your mesh first - have fun!
Hope this makes some sense,
- Don - AA7AU
Orv, I was eyeballing the RBLDF-5nD as the price looks pretty good for the gain. I have a few dishes laying around. The biggest is 6 footer but it's not an offset dish. I also have a 130mm one that came off DirecTv. They are bigger here due to the satellite being at 88 degrees give or take. DirecTV is way down on the horizon from here. I might get some pretty good gain out of that. I used to install the Filipino Channel dishes for some of my wife's friends before they sold out to DirecTv and still have a couple 100mm dishes. Just have to find something to point at.
Randy, That was spot on. That is exactly what I did when I finally got it to work for me. I was watching the video from Ray Suelzer and missed the part about the dumb switch. Hope that great right-up will help the next guy. Google was my friend that led me to the forum that someone suggested the dumb switch.
Don, Mahalo for the heads up on the Allstar stuff. I'll keep this in the back of my head for now. You are right, I need to get some the Aredn Mesh going first. Winlink isn't as complicated as you think. I don't know if you ever did packet but but the new VARA FM is amazing. I can send what takes almost 16 minutes on 1200 baud packet in 1.4 minutes on VARA FM 9600 and 2.6 minutes on VARA FM 1200. Unlike FLDIGI, No one needs to be on the other end to receive it. A bunch of ECOM guys in California and Europe are using it with great success. We are implementing it here in Hawaii too. The Winlink development team has included it in RMS Packet and RMS Express.
I just retired last year and now I do what I love.... Play and learn! <GRIN>
Jim NH6HI
We are going to do some experiments with 70cm on low power and a beacon from Kalaheo to the passive reflector and drive around Lihue to see what we can hear. I also found out there were some guys on the east and North shore that were playing with the old the ham mesh system with Ubiqiiti stuff. It kind of fell by the wayside. I'm hoping that what they have is still usable and that we can re-flash it with the new software. I'm putting out an email for a list of what's out there. It's looking good to me! I'm going to snap some lines on Google Earths.
Jim NH6HI
If you can give me the lat/lon for these sites and the dish diameters, I'd be happy to run a path analysis and tell you whether it'll work or not.
Andre, K6AH
<callsign>@arrl.net
21.976004 -159.369754
21.914433 -159.493331
21.911812 -159.527899
Jim
Jim,
I wish I could help more as I'm over on Oahu, but I am leaving the islands in a couple of months and just had ankle surgery so I won't be mobile anytime soon. So I hope that this helps you out some. I looked at the locations you provided and I think all of them would work out, except one. This one station could be switched with one at the KARC tower in the below photo.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12wUi4FAj0RS1IjJThb3_TmlUAbbHpoJH
The overall link would look like this.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Tuy4yANQQIHDdSJRbDaXpgsy2PJtKaJd
The three link strengths are in the below pictures. The only concerning part it the required device height on the one at 22.053079 -159.661530. All the sites would use 5 GHz Powerbeam.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RPCS7QWeCNfBgkvStUCYPsKFCnxtBa6a
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FwspWUVVub3dLeoXmrv71g15FjhNF-ix
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Dzql1XXW_JhepAzIoc4MyvUE3ehBvYFc
If this placement does not work for you then reach back out or try plugging them in at this site. https://link.ui.com/#
Ray
We have to go up there soon as the plan is to take the repeater down. This is a helicopter ride $$$$ but there is a trail that goes up there. Some serious offroading! So in this case what should I be looking at? Something like a Bullet with an omni on 2.4ghz and a 5.8ghz directional to and from Kahili to Lihue at 5.8ghz to 21.977416° -159.367892 ? Any suggested devices?
Jim
Jim,
I'm just throwing out free advice from a telecom engineer (my day job). We have found that the 2x2 MIMO devices have higher and much more reliable throughput - especially in urban or mountainous areas, or in areas where there are bodies of water.
Bullets with small antennas are great for tactical/temporary setups and running out of a backpack, but if you're installing something I recommend a BaseBox 2 or a Rocket M2 with a large omni from Altelix for 2.4GHz, and on 5GHz I would use one of the many available 2x2 MIMO dishes (Rocket Dish 30 with BaseBox 5 or Rocket M5 or if it is a shorter link use the 'cheap but amazing' RBLHG-5HPnD-XL).
I always prefer the MikroTik equipment, especially the BaseBox as it has a full Watt of power, USB port, and an internal Mini-PCIe slot for a myriad of future stuff (C2 via a LoRa module, LTE modem, etc.).
-Damon K9CQB
I'm just wondering since I'm just starting out with nothing to point at, I'm thinking that I'm going to pick up 2 BaseBox 2 units, 1 for the house and 1 for my van to do some testing with. Which Altelix for 2.4GHz antenna do you you recommend? I see there is 12 & 15dbi models or is there something else?
Jim NH6HI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Altelix-2-4-GHz-15dBi-MIMO-Omni-Antenna-for-Cam...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Altelix-2-4-GHz-12dBi-MIMO-Omni-Antenna-for-Cam...
I'd get the 15dBi antenna - even on a vehicle (unless your shooting 30 degrees up to a hill with the other Omni). When I mentioned the 17dbi Altelix antenna I was confusing the dBi with this panel antenna (which I own, but only for a very specific purpose):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Altelix-2-4-GHz-17-dBi-90-Degree-Dual-Pol-2x-MIMO-WiFi-Sector-Sectorial-Antenna/153228473378
By the way: if you're looking for a good 2.4GHz panel antenna I've found this one is my favorite, because it has a 120 degree beamwidth (instead of only 90 like above) and you only sacrifice 1dB for that extra beamwidth:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Altelix-2-4-GHz-16-dBi-120-Degree-Dual-Pol-2x-MIMO-WiFi-Sector-Sectorial-Antenna/153228466239
Back on point: I think the BaseBox 2 with Omni antennas (the 15dB one is the best value) is the way to go for what we call 'edge nodes' (as opposed to core nodes). That brings up the 2.4GHz vs 5GHz issue. We've been using 2.4GHz for 3 reasons here in Virginia:
1. Edge nodes - to provide service to local, short distance areas to a community via a 120-panel or omni (usually delivered via 5GHz core nodes).
2. Point to Point dishes/panels - used in our core network in conjunction with 5GHz (and future 3GHz) on a tower or building where we have multiple core network nodes and we've run out of 5GHz channels and we decide to shoot a link using 2.4GHz due to the lack of noise level in that direction (usually a rural direction).
3. Early adopters - we have many of our founders that started on 2.4GHz equipment (and still on it) and we will do our best to make sure these guys are taken care of.
Other than that I recommend setting up a core network of all 5GHz equipment due to SNR and the incredible distances we are able to achieve with such cheap equipment.
-Damon K9CQB
Damon,
I'm kind of in the same situation you were even though I'm starting fresh. The guys with the older gear aren't going to be real excited to run out and sink a lot of money into new gear when they have stuff already. I'm thinking I need to start in the same ballpark they're playing in while using the newer updated gear and simultaneously putting up the 5ghz gear as the opportunity presents itself.
The prices of the gear are fairly reasonable like the 30 degree directional you sent the link for but go down to the shipping tab and put in my zip code of 96741. Be sure that you are sitting down. I have a freight forwarder I use but to make it worthwhile, I need to ship a lot of stuff.
I'm I'm at almost 1100' above sea level and some locations are at sea level. If you look at my location on the South side of the island, everyone within line of sight is below me at about a 90 degrees in the azmuth. Is an Omni or a directional a better choice?
Jim NH6HI
You're in a tight spot. That 15dBi Omni doesn't have much vertical beamwidth (8 degrees) and the 12dBi version only has 12 degrees of vertical beamwidth. Anything else would not have the gain to connect solidly on 2.4GHz over kilometers of terrain.
You might want to take a look at using a 2.4GHz panel with 120 degree horizontal beamwidth and point it in the direction of the most users on channel minus 2. That Altelix panel has a mechanical down-tilt capability that works perfect in your situation.
Then consider using two similar 5GHz 120 degree panel antennas providing coverage to the other two thirds of the compass. One node could be on channel 184 at 10MHz bandwidth, the other node on channel 180 at 20MHz bandwidth (just suggestions). I'll bet the folks who are in the coverage area of the 5GHz panels may not like it, but they'll have to use 5GHz directional nodes. But the good news is that MikroTik has some really cheap 5GHz MIMO devices (LDF-5, LHG-5, etc.) that can be had for less than $40-65 new and $35-55 used.
- Damon K9CQB
Basically, I have a mountain to my back so 2 of either one of these would cover the line of sight for me. Just wondering if the hardware is all stainless steel. This place is hell on steel unless it is the old time really heavy galvanized. I like the looks of the LHG-5. Mostly non-corrosive. I'm running into a big problem with shipping costs. I can get 2 of the RBLHG-5nD for $115.30 and free shipping, Something I should consider? It looks like everyone else is looking at $29 or more for shipping.
The items below they want as much to ship as the cost of the item. Guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet so to speak. I emailed them to see if they can ship USPS rather than FedEx or UPS.
http://www.altelix.com/2-4-GHz-Ubiquiti-120-Degree-Antenna-Kit-p/as24g16...
http://www.altelix.com/5-GHz-Ubiquiti-Mimosa-120-Degree-Antenna-Kit-p/as...
This is my only beef about living in paradise. Shipping sucks!
Jim NH6HI
I love the RBLHG-5nD and the RBLHG-5HPnD even more (higher power). Both of these can be ordered with the larger dish '-XL' version if you need more directionality.
-Damon K9CQB
I really appreciate the suggestions. I plan on doing some driving around and seeing what works and what doesn't. I believe none of the purchases so far will be a waste.
Aloha Jim NH6hi
-Damon K9CQB
Monday we set up a 900mhz FM radio to test the passive reflector on Mt Kahili. With a half watt and a 13 element vertical polarized yagi we were able to find the sweet spot in Lihue. I was driving around in my van with a receiver and a 3dbi vertical antenna. The right vertical line in the picture is where we were actually transmitting from. The lower horizontal line is the path we plotted with the mobile van and the last, about 2 miles was where we were able to pick up signal full quieting.The left vertical line in the picture and the center horizontal line is the original path of the Hawaiian Tel system. The top horizontal line is an old existing 2.4ghz HSMM node that we are shooting for. It is about 100 yards from the Hawaiian Tel building. When my 5ghz LGH's & LDF arrive, We're going to the original Kukuiolono Hawaiian Tel site and try the test again and shoot for the top line in the picture. Hope it works! This is too much fun!
Jim NH6HI
MikroTik LHG XL HP5 a good choice?
Ron, WH6TR for reference.. It's a 6' chainlink fence.
Jim NH6HI
Jim,
Are you allowed to repurpose that huge dish? It appears to be an old single feed PCM antenna of some unknown frequency. If you were allowed, you could easily pop off the cover and replace the feed horn with this 5GHz 2x2 MIMO version for $57 from ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-polarity-feed-horn-antenna-WiFi-5-GHz-for-parabolic-dish-reflector/233113664742
This feed horn may be of higher quality, it just mounts to the rear, not to the front (use PVC pipe extension maybe). It's almost $120, but probably better:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FEED-HORN-DISH-5-GHZ-34-dBi-Gain-MIMO/222942557709
You may have to fabricate your own adapter from PVC pipe and angle bracket to put either of these in the same parabolic focal point as the old feed horn. Just eyeball it the best you can, then adjust it once on the air when you can get SNR readings. I'd run the coax out the back via the same hole the old giant coax ran through and connect your BaseBox 5 there on the back.
FYI for rain fade: with 5GHz MIMO you won't see much noticeable rain fade. I have seen reduced SNR during rain when using single polarized devices (SISO node), but I attributed that to the rain getting the foliage and buildings wet and causing more multi-path that SISO devices can't mitigate. If you stick with MIMO equipment that will be negligible.
-Damon K9CQB
Jim NH6HI
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yzLw8DZxYvQRL4lJKmA-KGpMn3aH4Ch_&usp=sharing
Aloha Jim
https://drive.google.com/open?id=101Xw1AzXnqJ52Jl3oxNohv5ssa91kPJD
Ray
Mahalo for sharing that. It might not be too big of a deal if we split the costs. Since we are at the top of the chain and the Big Island on the bottom, We'll both get off easy. Oahu and Maui will have to pay double to connect to each other and the ends.
Jim NH6HI
Not sure if you saw the response above, but it's not going to be possible to work on this project together. I wish I had a few more years on the island so we could could figure it out. Either way I hope the other nodes placements I recommend work out.
Ray KM4TZE
I guess my response didn't come across the way I meant. I was referring to the folks on the other islands in the chain, Not you. That would be very presumptive on my part. If they want to get on the bus, they're going to have to pay the fare so to speak. I'll be thrilled to pick your brain when mine fails to function in a rational fashion though.
73 & aloha,
Jim NH6HI
Ray KM4TZE
aredn-853-94816c4-mikrotik-vmlinux-initramfs.elf
aredn-853-94816c4-mikrotik-rb-nor-flash-16M-sysupgrade.binHi, Jim:
Unless there is some specific feature you want in that Nightly Build,
I recommend the current Stable:
aredn-3.19.3.0-mikrotik-vmlinux-initramfs.elf
aredn-3.19.3.0-mikrotik-rb-nor-flash-16M-sysupgrade.bin
found here:
http://downloads.arednmesh.org/firmware/ubnt/html/stable.html
3s, Chuck
Jim NH6HI
Jim NH6HI
Ubiquiti Tough Cable, comes in Pro and Carrier: https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=ubiquiti+tough+cable. Approx $135/1000' for Pro right now, varies. Choose your tthird-party seller well.
- Don - AA7AU
I do have some "cheap" shielded CAT5 that I bought off e-bay 1000' for around $55.00 that has served for over 4 years, but some of it started failing after less than 1 year. Leaks water like a seive - I suspect damage from tower climbers, so the "tougher the better".
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Altelix-5-GHz-11dB-MIMO-Omni-Antenna-for-Cambiu...
Seems like they only do 5150-5850 MHz. Just wondering about 5855 to 5915? I don't have any equipment to measure SWR at 5ghz to start with so just taking the manufactures word that it's really resonant at the published frequencies. Antenna is everything. Suggestions appreciated.
Jim NH6HI
We only tested it to 5950MHz and it seems to have very little difference from 5850MHz.
In our area we have many of the Altelix antennas (Omni, Dish, and Panel) up on 5900MHz (Channel 180) without any issues at all.
-Damon K9CQB
Jim
I just bought 4 MikroTik BaseBox 5's, 1 Altelex 13dbi omni (AU5G13M2-PRO) and 2 120 degree DP Sector antennas (AS5158G16B120M2-KU ) ... Got more ????? Went to the software page and downloaded the proper files for flashing. Re-read the flashing procedure and flashed the unit and updated callsign etc. without a problem so far. See attached screen shots. Notice the first one the there's no Signal/Noise/Ratio and this node sees nothing unless they are all plugged into the same switch.
I re-flashed and re-downloaded the files with the samo results. Decided to try the nightly build in final desperation with the same results. Busted out a second BaseBox 5 and gev'er another bloody go. Same results. So now the only thing left is the omni antenna. It happens, and usually to me as I have to pay extra to get stuff to and from Hawaii. Guess I'll have to bust out one of the 120 degree sector antennas.
If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm open. I was going to post this to the hardware part of the forum in a new thread but it wouldn't let me post .png screen shots for some reason.
Jim NH6HI
Hi, Jim:
I have read your note several times and seems you recently bought 4 BaseBox5 nodes and 3 antennas.
It seems you flashed one node.
Did you load AREDN firmware on all 4 BaseBox nodes?
It seems the 'first' node is deaf.
Is it also 'dumb'?
Are any of the other 3 BB5 nodes hearing the 'first' node?
Ensure that the channel and bandwidth is identical on nodes being tested.
You also own 2 LDF 5GHz nodes?
Do any of your LDF 5s hear this 'first' node?
Perhaps do not use a switch during the testing.
How well do the rest of the nodes get along?
Hope this helps.
Chuck
Jim NH6HI
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