I know it isn't best practice to have multiple, more-or-less co-located nodes on the same band and channel, but I am not sure how else to accomplish what I need. I have a directional node on a tower elsewhere on my property several hundred feet away, it is facing away from my shack location in my house. Its too far to run an Ethernet cable to the tower node, and also too far to reach directly from my shack node over the air. I've placed 2 intermediate nodes between me and the tower node, I get some connectivity to the tower node, but clearly having multiple systems on the same band and channel in a localized area is affecting thruput, LQ, NLQ and ETX are suffering. So what's the right way to access the remote tower node? I need to know the right procedure to connect to and administer the node on the tower from my shack.
73, Bill, N4SV
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Co-located node connection process?
Sun, 12/10/2023 - 13:13
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Co-located node connection process?
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You might make the connection between the shack and the tower by using a different data rf mode than AREDN. Perhaps a lower frequency so it has better propogation? If your tower is good joining with other AREDN nodes from it's location, you could just extend your LAN instead of having the actual AREDN in your shack. Regular wifi has "repeater" or "extender" modes available that pass traffic just fine.
Ed
Orv W6BI
Hi, Bill:
"it is facing away from my shack location in my house"
So, an ethernet DtD link seems most obvious.
Optionally, another directional node at the tower aimed at the shack
DtD connected to the directional node facing away from your shack.
"It is too far to run an Ethernet cable to the tower node"
The ethernet standard is a minimum of 100 meters (328.084 feet), but
I have have gotten DtD and POE to span 400+ feet on the bench with CAT-5.
Please, report an estimate of the cable-length distance from the shack node to the tower node and tower base.
"too far to reach directly from my shack node over the air"
I am a little baffled at that statement. Please more detail.
"I've placed 2 intermediate nodes between me and the tower node"
Please give more detail on these additional 2 nodes
(make, model, channel, bandwidth) and more detail on where you placed them.
73, Chuck
Chuck, while the distance to the tower isn't the primary issue (possibly 400 cable feet), the physical access is; nearly impossible to get access to run an Ethernet cable for the DtD, for various personal reasons. For some of the same reasons, adding an additional node node back-to-back on the tower isn't doable either. I gather because the tower node is directional (Air Grid 2.4 GHz) and facing away, and the system I am using in the shack (in the basement) is for all purposes under ground, it simply can't see the Air Grid directly. That's the reason I have added the intermediate nodes, to span the distance. The real puzzle is how poor the connectivity is with a node mounted outside on my house, which has a virtual line of sight to the Air Grid, maybe 200 to 300 feet away. I shouldn't have to use 2 intermediate nodes just to see the Air Grid, I wouldn't think. That's what prompted my original question, because the thru put is way worse than it should be, so I expect that adding the intermediate nodes is actually degrading the thruput.
I am something of a dinosaur in the AREDN/HSMM world, been doing it since the BBHN, WRT-54G days. None of that old Linksys gear still around, but a lot of original Ubiquiti stuff, many different flavors. I have 3, 2.4 GHz Nano Loco's, a Ubiquiti Air Router, and the Air Grid on the tower, all on Channel -1 and 10 MHz. The Air Router and one of the Nano Locos are in the basement supporting a couple of VoIP systems and phones in two locations about 60 feet apart (and I know those should be DtD connected, I have just not gotten around to doing that). One Nano Loco on the outside of the house and another Nano Loco, maybe 150 feet away from the house on the building next to the tower. Unfortunately no other AREDN nodes within range, I am still trying to build a fire of interest in the local ham club to get some others interested, but so far no luck there. The Air Grid is up in hopes of soon reaching another ham several miles away, but that link hasn't been established yet either. So for now its just me trying to get from the basement shack to the Air Grid with a reasonably good thruput. Haven't made the switch to MIMO equipment yet, although I have a proven Rocket 2.4 GHz ona sector antenna waiting in the wings to be deployed. But time and money keep that from happening, so for now I'd just like to have descent thruput from the shack to the Air Grid. Let me know if you need more info.
73, Bill, N4SV
OK on running an ethernet cable to the tower is not happening.
"adding an additional node node back-to-back"
I am not suggesting 'back-to-back'.
I am suggesting a DtD connection between 2 nodes on the tower.
You got one node powered on the tower, perhaps you could power
a second one. ?
" it simply can't see the Air Grid directly."
I am not suggesting that any node 'see the Air Grid directly'.
That would not make good networking.
"virtual line of sight to the Air Grid"
You seem 'hung up' on 'seeing' the Air Grid on the tower.
I have no intention of 'seeing' the Air Grid on the tower via RF from your shack.
" so for now I'd just like to have descent thruput from the shack to the Air Grid"
Yes, DtD connect your shack node to a node outside your shack,
RF link the node outside your shack to a node on the tower,
DtD connect the node on the tower to the Air Grid on the tower.
This comment could be another Forum thread.
Why are you using channel '-1'?
Channel '-1' shares band space with Part 15 channel '1'.
73, Chuck
For the BBHN/AREDN group I was involved with back in Virginia, once we switched to Ubiquiti hardware from the old WRT-54G we wanted to get away from as much Part 15 clutter as possible, and we ran all of our nodes on channel -2 and 10 MHz. The guy I am trying to link to with the Air Grid insisted on using channel -1 and 10 mhz, even after I pointed out there would be overlap to channel 1 in Part 15. I lost and so, at least with initial attempts to make a link I have to meet his -1/10 MHz. It's a proof of concept at this point; if I can link to him at all on 2.4 GHz I am going to try and move him to 5 GHz equipment. Its relatively rural where I am so the amount of Part 15 traffic is much less than where I was back in Virginia, so I am hoping channel -1/10 MHz will bear fruit on a link. But at this juncture I think we are too far apart (about 12 to 15 miles) and too much terrain and not enough node height to make the trip. I am working on locating some intermediate hams between he and I where I might place some nodes, but that too is a work in progress.
As for my RF issues I guess I just need to bite the bullet and try for some additional cabling for DtD links on both ends. Maybe I'll set up a couple of 5 GHz nodes to connect from the shack to the building next to the tower, then DtD on both ends from 5 GHz to 2.4 GHz for best thru put. I haven't invested in 5 GHz equipment yet, as I nearly got burned years ago looking to move to 3 GHz stuff, only to have hams loose that band. I was afraid something similar might happen to the ham allocation in 5 GHz, but I guess that is relatively safe now?? I move in and out of my involvement with AREDN, not enough time to devote to ham radio in general, and unfortunately for my AREDN activities I enjoy chasing HF DX way more, HI. Thanks for the feedback Chuck, really appreciate it...oh, by the way, when I said back-to-back earlier I meant adding a DtD connected node to the existing tower system, sorry for the confusion..
73, Bill, N4SV
Hi, Bill:
"what's the right way to access the remote tower node?"
Asked about: "It is too far to run an Ethernet cable to the tower node"
Answered: "the physical access is; nearly impossible"
An aside query about channel '-1'. Answered.
"too far to reach directly from my shack node over the air"
I am a little baffled at that statement. Please more detail.
"I've placed 2 intermediate nodes between me and the tower node"
Please give more detail on these additional 2 nodes
(make, model, channel, bandwidth) and more detail on where you placed them.
Answered: All 2.4 GHz; 3x Nano Loco, Rocket/sector, Air Router; and
all on Channel -1 and 10 MHz.
"I am suggesting a DtD connection between 2 nodes on the tower.
You got one node powered on the tower, perhaps you could power
a second one.
"For some of the same reasons, adding an additional node node back-to-back on the tower isn't doable either."
"when I said back-to-back earlier I meant adding a DtD connected node to the existing tower system"
If you cannot run an ethernet cable from the shack to the tower and
you cannot have a 2nd node on the tower DtD connected to the Air Grid,
I have no solution.
If you want assistance with RF connectivity between you and your neighbor,
I suggest that you start a new thread and share information such as
both node's dBi, dBm, elevation, longitude, and latitude.
73, Chuck
As I mentioned I have been away from any serious AREDN work for some time, what currently supported devices for 5 GHz would you suggest to create the radio link between house and tower location? I've been a Ubiquiti guy for so long and really not up to speed on the other brands. I did get a HAP AC Lite last year, to have something newer to test out, but I'll need something for the 5 GHz link that can go outside and handle the weather. I was just going to pick up a couple of 5 GHz Ubiquiti Nano Locos since I am very familiar with that brand, but maybe something from one of the other manufactures would be better? Any suggestions appreciated, but they do need to be reliable, and not cost an arm and a leg either. Thanks.
73, Bill, N4SV
The Mikrotik SXT5 stuff is quite good, small footprint. Get the optional mounting bracket that moves all directions. If it's really close and los is good you might be ok with the lite version but the HP version is good, and the new AC stuff no one is complaining (yet). Put an SXT5 on each end so long as you have actual LOS and not a bunch of trees ... sheds ... etc in the way. Put the SXTs on a frequency nothing else is using and you might be able to get by without using full power. I think I've seen these for about $70 each. Forget anything that is not narrow beam as you're compensating for not being able to run cable ... not provding other stations any service.
Ed
EDIT >>>>>> get the Quick Mount Pro .... it's really worth the added $
"For some of the same reasons, adding an additional node node back-to-back on the tower isn't doable either." "what currently supported devices for 5 GHz would you suggest to create the radio link between house and tower location?"
Hi, Bill:
I am baffled.
I think you have sufficient devices already.
The only item unknown is if you have (or can get) ethernet cables.
"not cost an arm and a leg either"
Using what you already have might be cheaper than buying new devices.
73, Chuck
I guess I've given some conflicting info, let me clarify. I can access the PoE with its LAN port for the AirGrid which is on the tower, the PoE is in a building at the base of the tower. So I can DtD from that PoE to an intermediate node, then span via RF back to my house. Same is true at the shack in my house, I can set up a DtD on that end as well. What I need to do is span from shack to tower building via RF, I've been doing that now with additional 2.4 GHz devices, AREDN nodes on the same channel as the Air Grid and node in the shack, and was assuming these intermediate devices were adding to the thruput issues. Sounds like you are saying I could still use the 2.4 GHz devices at the shack and tower ends but they should be DtD to the "active" nodes on each end? But won't these 2.4 GHz intermediate nodes still cause issues, or does the DtD eliminate that? My plan was to replace these two intermediate 2.4 GHz devices with a couple of similar 5 GHz devices, so there is no possibility of RF interference, but if I can get by keeping the intermediate nodes on 2.4 GHz, that would be excellent, and save me some money.
Hi, Bill:
I am unfamiliar with the term 'intermediate node'.
I am unsure of what is an 'active node'.
Is there an 'inactive node'?
Suggestion:
Take 1 of your Loco M2s and put it on the tower and point it at your house.
DtD link that Loco M2 to the Air grid on the tower.
(Ethernet cable between the POE's LAN ports)
Take another Loco M2 and put it at/on/atop the house and point it at the tower's Loco M2.
DtD link this Loco M2 to your hAP-lite.
(Ethernet cable from Loco M2 to DtD port of hAP-lite)
On the 2 Loco M2s, choose a channel thus:
If 20 MHz bandwidth, use a channel '2' through '6'.
If 10 MHz bandwidth, use a channel '1' through '7'.
Of course both Loco M2s need to be on the same channel and bandwidth.
(Channel '-1' At 10 MHz bandwidth does not overlap channel '1' at 10 MHz bandwidth.
If you use the 2 GHz radio on the hAP-lite, don't use a co-channel or overlapping channel
among the LocoM2s and the Air Grid.
73, Chuck
You have to put something on the tower itself and connect, or run cable. Or you could move the house to the other side of the tower ;-)
Ed
OR
Run cable from shack to tower.
Ed
Ed:
"It's not relevant if you have access to the POE at the base of the tower, you have to have tower access up in the air."
Not necessarily.
The two POEs may be at the base (building near the base) of the tower.
The 'DtD' connection can happen inside the building at the base of the tower.
"You don't add things dtd from the POE side of a power injector."
Correct
You do add things DtD from the LAN side of a POE injector.
To DtD link two devices it is as simple as connecting an ethernet cable between the LAN ports of the two POEs.
"And dtd means linking devices that are reasonably close to each other via different channels, not hundreds of feet away on the same channel."
Well, DtD linking devices is typically done among devices on different channels and/or bands.
The 'DtDed' devices could be hundreds of feet apart, vertically or horizontally or both.
73, Chuck
Seems you may have overlooked my comment that access to the tower to add any additional equipment is not available at this time, nor is there the possibility of cabling between shack and tower. That's the reason I was adding these "intermediate nodes" to try and bridge the gap. Of course ideally a system on the tower pointed to the shack is the best solution, but unfortunately not available. However I have made all paths between my localized nodes much better by creating a DtD connection now between two of them on the shack side of the equation. Now I need to run another DtD cable on the tower side of things, between the Air Grid on the tower (the PoE and its Ethernet connections are accessible in the building next to the tower) and the "intermediate node" facing towards the shack. So things are getting better, at only the cost and time of a long Ethernet cable. Once I add the DtD cable on the tower side I think things should get much better. It was just so easy tossing up another node and letting them communicate over the air I saw no need to DtD cable between them...until I realized the path degradation caused by all of that Wi-Fi traffic. Off loading it onto a DtD cable so far has made a big difference. Now I just have to get another managed switch to add to the tower side of things, as one Ethernet port on the Air Grid PoE isn't going allow for the other systems on that side of the network (laptop for localized management, VoIP phone for wired coms, and then adding a DtD port to the other node on that end), probably a GS108E.
If Bill refuses to either locate a device on the tower so it makes a one hop connection to his shack, or to run cable shack to tower ... then the only other thing that could work would be to transition to part 15 wifi for the link. He can buy consumer grade wifi access points for both ends that can be configured to be "wifi extenders" and so long as he can get power to the devices do multiple hops from the tower base to his shack. That's how you move a signal from one location to another on one channel. You can't do this with AREDN devices, but you can do it with inexpensive part 15 devices.
Ed