The distance between the Passaic County OEM in Wayne and the Alpine location is 24.3 km or 15.1 miles. Our initial test did not produce a connection. We suspect that the Alpine node was too low Our next tests will elevate this node significantly higher.
This test run also demonstrated a good link between the Wayne location and the Fair Lawn Community Center, a distance of 4.3 miles or 6.9 km, using a Nanostation M2 in Wayne and a Rocket M2 into an omnidirectional antenna in Fair Lawn.
If you could get the node on the Alpine Scout Camp Water Tower.
I see positive simulation results to connect to the following from on the Alpine Water Tower (height of 30 meters above ground level) pointed toward Passaic County OEM, Wayne, behind Passaic County Community College:
Passaic County OEM - 24.35 km (only possible trees near nodes if too low in Alpine)
WA2ISE - 10.5 km & in line with Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine)
Paramus (BRMC) - 12.31 KM & 2 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine)
W2NPT (FLARC) - 17.57 km & 3 1/2 degrees to the south from Alpine Water Tower (hill by Paramus Road is close)
W2TTT - 9 KM & 20 degrees to the south of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks promising with 30 m height in Alpine, angle may work if directional antenna is used)
WU2S - 11 km & 22 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (just the hill near WU2S with 30 m height in Alpine, angle may work if directional antenna is used)
Franklin Lakes Tower (SRRC) - 24.35 km & 30 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine, but bad angle)
KD2BKD - 11 km & 47 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (close hill by KD2BKD most likely will be in the way & bad angle)
Garrett Mountain should also be in range.
West Orange is a stretch.
Got to get that node at the water tower level pointing west. I do not think it needs to be on the top.
If Alpine Scout Camp is not possible what about the America Tower (1/4 mile east) or Armstrong Tower (1 1/2 mile south)?
I just set my range to FARTHEST neighbor to 20KM, and I'm on 917MHz at 5MHz BW. I had 7KM for FARTHEST neighbor before. Reaimed it towards Alpine, and raised it a little higher, it should clear just enough the roof of the house. Hoping that you can connect to me.
An Alpine node will make connections in the NNJ area greatly accessible but that will take allot of effort to be able to get permissions to put nodes at that location. I do not see this as an easy endeavor if it is possible at all.
There are other locations we are looking at to test with good coverage in Pascack Valley, NJ. Once a location is setup we will let you know what frequency, settings, and direction you will need to access it. I hope this to be available in the coming Summer 2017 months.
1st simulation below is what my location to your location looks like with NS2Ms. Soldier Hill is in the way. My node is 10m above ground level pointing south. I am guessing yours is 7m elevation?
My node is set so W2TTT can test a connection to me as eastern Pascack Valley runs from my home to W2TTT so it should work according to simulations. See simulation below (W2TTT is on the left, I am on the right).
If I recall correctly, the K2FJ 146,955 repeater is on the Alpine tower. If anyone you know knows them, maybe they would let you mount a node right near their 2 meter antenna. I knew the previous trustee, but he's now a SK.
The new test location shows that you may need to raise your node? Below is a simulation for 2.4GHz with your node at 6 meters high. 3 meters more and the simulation is green. We may need to go to 900MHz to cut through the trees which will then require your node to be even higher? The problem is Soldier Hill and does show houses in the way. 5.8GHz should make it ok if there were no trees or buildings. The location on the left pointing south may get you and 2 others depending on tree and building conditions. The other location simulations look plausible.
I am hoping we can get some results within the next few weeks for this location. No need to turn or raise anything until testing has be completed and node is mounted.
I do know someone in the CRRC which has the antenna on the water tower and will eventually look into if it is possible to mount a node there if I join their club.
I remeasured how high my nodes are, and they're 7.3 meters above average ground level at my QTH. I'm using a 2.4GHz antenna with about 10db gain, but that wouldn't help clear the fresnel issues.
This is the typical tree situation we are against in Northern NJ
Trees 75+ feet high with rolling hills. Most hills are not high enough to get over more than one other hill a mile away, if you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill.
We will be doing testing soon for 900MHz and 2.4GHz. I am hoping this weekend (06/10/2017) but may be as late as July 2017 sometime.
If you want to be part of the testing point your nodes 8 degrees west of true north (toward WU2S) as high as you can. The test location happens to be in direct line to both you and WU2S.
I just did this, pointing my 900MHz node 8 degrees west of north. (turns out that's about 180 degrees from the pointing of my TV antenna) and put it higher about a half meter. Now it's about 7.6 meters above ground. The 900 node's antenna pattern is really broad, so it should be good if everything else is good. I set the distance parameter to 20kM on both nodes.
You do not have line of site to Randy unless you both have 65+ ft towers. There is a hill in the distance directly in the line with Randy that should be line of site to both of you which is the new test location. Look at reply #8 above. At 4.47 km on the hill is were Randy's is. Compare that location to yours at the right, it has the same shape terrain as your latest simulations.
I thought that that might be, as the fresnel is encroached by those hills. And a 65 foot tower is not likely to happen...
The simulation does seem to imply that some data could be passed. Or is that unreaistic?
What that might mean is that you will have hot spots and dead spots. You should try moving the antenna around on one end. Up/down or right/left. We saw that kind of thing in the past at the Passaic County Fair.
This does not mean I will give up. The Loco 900s & NS-M2s were unable to get any connection at 7 ft above ground level on the new location side and mounted 35 ft at the other location.
A pair of newly supported (beta version 3.17.1.RC1) PowerBeam M2-400 may be able to get through those trees at a higher elevations with the dish's higher gain? They are only $80 each.
But we will go more vertical, possibly at 65 ft on a 80+ ft tall pine tree which is in the way when mounted on the house but it is not that dense of a pine tree. There is another pine tree 200 feet away in the signal direction at about 100 ft tall then the topography drops. The new location also needs to be tested at much more elevation.
New location is on the right side. 1st tree on left side is the 80ft pine. Height of left nodes are mounted at about 35ft. Right side was tested at a 1/4 elevation than shown. Fresnel zone is also for a 2.4GHz signal. 900KHz will just make it over the 2 black buildings shown.
A month ago or so, Gordon W2TTT did an experiment to see how well his mobile 2.4GHz node would link up to my 2.4GHz Bullet with the 10dBi antenna. If I recall correctly, he connected to my node when he was atop the hill one hill to the west (Forest Ave & Oradell Ave) and lost contact near where the Pascack Valley RR line cross Oradell Ave. That's about a half mile west and east of my QTH. Seems that this part of the country is tough on microwave links...
Thought crossed my mind with the question of using, say an amateur TV channel near 432MHz for a 5MHz mesh channel. Digital signals generally look like random noise on an analog NTSC TV receiver, so we might be able to coexist with that ham community (assuming mesh is legal on 432). Idea being that 432 may punch thru trees better. But the fresnel zone infringement may kill it... Though digital over the air TV signals make it thru. Does there exist 10 to 20GHz equipment, and would that do us any good anyway?
Gordon was driving, so there was likely a delay between loss of signal to when he saw it and talked to me over the 2m radio. You know how driving can distract you from other tasks He should have lost contact a little east of Prospect (one light west of KKmack). Though the node may report a connection still valid for some time after it looses it.
WA2ISE do you have a 2.4GHz node? If so did you point it in the same direction as the 900MHz? If scheduling is a problem to do the 900MHz this weekend I will then take down my node and pole Saturday and at least do the testing with 2.4GHz if you have such a thing mounted. If I can get another 2.4GHz node I will then test the new site to my home also. I would also like to test 5.8GHz for these locations but do not have any nodes to do so and do not want to spend the money before knowing that it will work out.
Yes, I do have a 2.4GHz node, a Bullet with a 10dBi gain omnidirectional antenna. See image. About 7.3 meters above local ground. Gordon W2TTT can connect to it with his mobile 2.4GHz node when he drives past my QTH. And have the 900Mhz node (currently aimed towards WU2S), but no 3 or 5.8GHz nodes.
Please visit my Wiki page on Github to learn about the research that I am doing with a SCADA low power technology using Arduino. Using omni verticals, I have achieved distances over 3.5 km and this research has just started.
What is the distance between Alpine & Wayne? Which units are you utilizing? I will be VERY
interrested in your results.......Best of luck (testing?).
The distance between the Passaic County OEM in Wayne and the Alpine location is 24.3 km or 15.1 miles. Our initial test did not produce a connection. We suspect that the Alpine node was too low Our next tests will elevate this node significantly higher.
This test run also demonstrated a good link between the Wayne location and the Fair Lawn Community Center, a distance of 4.3 miles or 6.9 km, using a Nanostation M2 in Wayne and a Rocket M2 into an omnidirectional antenna in Fair Lawn.
I see positive simulation results to connect to the following from on the Alpine Water Tower (height of 30 meters above ground level) pointed toward Passaic County OEM, Wayne, behind Passaic County Community College:
Passaic County OEM - 24.35 km (only possible trees near nodes if too low in Alpine)
WA2ISE - 10.5 km & in line with Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine)
Paramus (BRMC) - 12.31 KM & 2 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine)
W2NPT (FLARC) - 17.57 km & 3 1/2 degrees to the south from Alpine Water Tower (hill by Paramus Road is close)
W2TTT - 9 KM & 20 degrees to the south of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks promising with 30 m height in Alpine, angle may work if directional antenna is used)
WU2S - 11 km & 22 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (just the hill near WU2S with 30 m height in Alpine, angle may work if directional antenna is used)
Franklin Lakes Tower (SRRC) - 24.35 km & 30 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (looks very promising with 30 m height in Alpine, but bad angle)
KD2BKD - 11 km & 47 degrees to the north of Passaic OEM from Alpine Water Tower (close hill by KD2BKD most likely will be in the way & bad angle)
Garrett Mountain should also be in range.
West Orange is a stretch.
Got to get that node at the water tower level pointing west. I do not think it needs to be on the top.
If Alpine Scout Camp is not possible what about the America Tower (1/4 mile east) or Armstrong Tower (1 1/2 mile south)?
I AM UP TO HELP IN THE NEXT TEST.
-Randy
I just set my range to FARTHEST neighbor to 20KM, and I'm on 917MHz at 5MHz BW. I had 7KM for FARTHEST neighbor before. Reaimed it towards Alpine, and raised it a little higher, it should clear just enough the roof of the house. Hoping that you can connect to me.
To WA2ISA,
An Alpine node will make connections in the NNJ area greatly accessible but that will take allot of effort to be able to get permissions to put nodes at that location. I do not see this as an easy endeavor if it is possible at all.
There are other locations we are looking at to test with good coverage in Pascack Valley, NJ. Once a location is setup we will let you know what frequency, settings, and direction you will need to access it. I hope this to be available in the coming Summer 2017 months.
1st simulation below is what my location to your location looks like with NS2Ms. Soldier Hill is in the way. My node is 10m above ground level pointing south. I am guessing yours is 7m elevation?
My node is set so W2TTT can test a connection to me as eastern Pascack Valley runs from my home to W2TTT so it should work according to simulations. See simulation below (W2TTT is on the left, I am on the right).
-Bob in NNJ
If I recall correctly, the K2FJ 146,955 repeater is on the Alpine tower. If anyone you know knows them, maybe they would let you mount a node right near their 2 meter antenna. I knew the previous trustee, but he's now a SK.
The new test location shows that you may need to raise your node? Below is a simulation for 2.4GHz with your node at 6 meters high. 3 meters more and the simulation is green. We may need to go to 900MHz to cut through the trees which will then require your node to be even higher? The problem is Soldier Hill and does show houses in the way. 5.8GHz should make it ok if there were no trees or buildings. The location on the left pointing south may get you and 2 others depending on tree and building conditions. The other location simulations look plausible.
I am hoping we can get some results within the next few weeks for this location. No need to turn or raise anything until testing has be completed and node is mounted.
I do know someone in the CRRC which has the antenna on the water tower and will eventually look into if it is possible to mount a node there if I join their club.
I remeasured how high my nodes are, and they're 7.3 meters above average ground level at my QTH. I'm using a 2.4GHz antenna with about 10db gain, but that wouldn't help clear the fresnel issues.
73s
WA2ISE
Trees 75+ feet high with rolling hills. Most hills are not high enough to get over more than one other hill a mile away, if you are lucky enough to live at the top of a hill.
We will be doing testing soon for 900MHz and 2.4GHz. I am hoping this weekend (06/10/2017) but may be as late as July 2017 sometime.
If you want to be part of the testing point your nodes 8 degrees west of true north (toward WU2S) as high as you can. The test location happens to be in direct line to both you and WU2S.
Bob H. in NNJ
The test station is just under 9 km from you so 10 km to 11 km should work best.
Hope to see your nodes in these tests.
Here's a simulation at 5GHz, Not much better.
The simulation does seem to imply that some data could be passed. Or is that unreaistic?
What that might mean is that you will have hot spots and dead spots. You should try moving the antenna around on one end. Up/down or right/left. We saw that kind of thing in the past at the Passaic County Fair.
This does not mean I will give up. The Loco 900s & NS-M2s were unable to get any connection at 7 ft above ground level on the new location side and mounted 35 ft at the other location.
A pair of newly supported (beta version 3.17.1.RC1) PowerBeam M2-400 may be able to get through those trees at a higher elevations with the dish's higher gain? They are only $80 each.
https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-PowerBeam-Wireless-Bridge-PBE-M2-400/dp/B00OJZO9PY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497190790&sr=8-2&keywords=powerbeam+m2+400
The more costly NanoBridge M9 at $160 each may also be an option? Is this just a Loco 900 mounted on a dish for more gain?
https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-NanoBridge-Wireless-Bridge-NBM9/dp/B00LV8QS7O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497190956&sr=8-1&keywords=nanobridge+m900
But we will go more vertical, possibly at 65 ft on a 80+ ft tall pine tree which is in the way when mounted on the house but it is not that dense of a pine tree. There is another pine tree 200 feet away in the signal direction at about 100 ft tall then the topography drops. The new location also needs to be tested at much more elevation.
New location is on the right side. 1st tree on left side is the 80ft pine. Height of left nodes are mounted at about 35ft. Right side was tested at a 1/4 elevation than shown. Fresnel zone is also for a 2.4GHz signal. 900KHz will just make it over the 2 black buildings shown.
Thought crossed my mind with the question of using, say an amateur TV channel near 432MHz for a 5MHz mesh channel. Digital signals generally look like random noise on an analog NTSC TV receiver, so we might be able to coexist with that ham community (assuming mesh is legal on 432). Idea being that 432 may punch thru trees better. But the fresnel zone infringement may kill it... Though digital over the air TV signals make it thru. Does there exist 10 to 20GHz equipment, and would that do us any good anyway?
This makes total sense, but W2TTT should have lost contact before KKmack Road.
Top plot: Forest Ave to your QTH is clear sailing for the RF.
Bottom plot: Down at KKmack the hill kills it.
He may have been able to reconnect at the end of Oradell Ave by Grant Street?
Someday I will have to take a ride with my NS2M on 16 ft pole and check out the RF conditions in Oradell.
Gordon was driving, so there was likely a delay between loss of signal to when he saw it and talked to me over the 2m radio. You know how driving can distract you from other tasks
He should have lost contact a little east of Prospect (one light west of KKmack). Though the node may report a connection still valid for some time after it looses it.
Bob H in NNJ
Yes, I do have a 2.4GHz node, a Bullet with a 10dBi gain omnidirectional antenna. See image. About 7.3 meters above local ground. Gordon W2TTT can connect to it with his mobile 2.4GHz node when he drives past my QTH. And have the 900Mhz node (currently aimed towards WU2S), but no 3 or 5.8GHz nodes.
Please visit my Wiki page on Github to learn about the research that I am doing with a SCADA low power technology using Arduino. Using omni verticals, I have achieved distances over 3.5 km and this research has just started.
73,
Frank, WA2KWR
https://github.com/fcolumbu/LoRa_Projects/wiki
*** Edit by moderator to fit image size ***
Oops, that April 3rd was in last year....