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does DTD prevent same site collisions?

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KD7VEA
does DTD prevent same site collisions?
I have been hearing a lot of debate on this issue back and forth on packet collision.  I am hearing that if you run multiple nodes as to relay to other stations, that you will have packet collisions if they are running on the same frequency.  I will make this more visual.  A<->B<->c, so A sees B, and b sees C, because B has lets say two separate rockets and sectors pointed in opposite directions.  If you DTD the 2 separate radios at site B, does that not communicate between the 2 rockets at site B to make sure that they dont colide with each other?
wa2ise
wa2ise's picture
You'd still have trouble if
You'd still have trouble if say one of the B's decides to transmit to A, making the other B not be able to hear a transmission by C. 
KD7VEA
Good point, so is the only
Good point, so is the only solution to use separate frequencies in each direction?
wa2ise
wa2ise's picture
If you are able to change
If you are able to change either A's or C's operating frequency, that would be a solution.  As long as the Bs' receivers don't get desensed by the other B. 
KD7VEA
hmmm
I guess there are no work arounds for this.  we stricktly run Channel -2 at 10 MHz wide and have great coverage(solid links over 30 miles from mountain top nodes), I guess we will need to do some more testing, and brainstorming to figure things out.  almost everyone can point to the mountain top node and connet, butwe are not truly meshing that way, its more of a hub and spoke connection, this is where multiple nodes at all of thevalley sites come in handy..
K6AH
K6AH's picture
Meshing or not...

I wouldn't get too hung up over your network not looking like a mesh.  To begin with, you need to define a path for data to pass because you don't have the node density to do it any other way.  In the end, the network may or may not pass traffic the way it was originally intended.  But that makes it more robust in that there will be multiple paths to get to the same point.

I would say focus on the most efficient ways to obtain your initial objective(s) (perhaps defined by a served agency).

Many of us have had great success in approaching this entirely as a traditional network (backbone node, distribution nodes, deployed/user nodes).  You might consider linking your mountain nodes on another band (3 GHz is what I use), and I also use 3 GHz from the backbone down to the distribution layer (I also call these mid-mile nodes) and then 2 GHz (channel -2) from there on down to the users.  Other prefer to use 5 GHz where I've used 3 GHz.

I'm sure eventually node density will redefine this initial architecture an I'll be fine with that.  At least, when all else fails, I'll have confidence traffic will get through the path I've originally defined.

Andre
 

AE6XE
AE6XE's picture
Links sharing channels
Links sharing channels

When 2 links are sharing the wireless channel, and these links are part of a tower site where traffic is hopping through, then the throughput is 50% if perfect conditions as compared to using different channels.  Both links can't transmit at the same time when sharing the channel and are taking turns.   The 802.11 protocol (adhoc mode in use by AREDN) uses CTS/RTS method to avoid collisions (using CA = collision avoidance, not CD = collisions detection) and to mitigate the "hidden transmitter" problem that comes in to play here.  I have been monitoring this protocol exchange recently on my own network with packet captures and inspection with wireshark.

Here is where the plot thickens and the story gets more interesting...  I am not seeing this hidden transmitter issue be a problem with the A<->B<->C setup where A and C are hidden to each other and B is the tower site.    CTS/RTS works to coordinate the traffic.

What I suspect I am seeing and has been a problem is the "exposed terminal" problem.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposed_node_problem .   The good news is that ch -2 has opened up a lot of links that are not possible with the noise in ch 1+.  The bad news is all the patchwork of links being created all over the geographical area is causing problematic patterns and throughput issues to occur.  I've had occurrences where turning on a mesh node in one location, with no obvious dependencies, wiped out a major backbone link and traffic came to a standstill in another area.  I used different channels to resolve.

If you are on an area mesh network and everyone is only using ch -2, then you are likely facing the problem that throughput doesn't scale and voip/video isn't working very effectively.    If every node is seeing every other node, then there simply won't be a way to scale up traffic.  It is an ideal 'mesh' from a tcpip routing option and redundancy perspective, but it will be an inefficient 802.11 layer design to achieve high data throughput.   This is because the mesh routing technology in use (OLSRv1) does not have sufficient information of the 802.11 layer to make optimal routing decisions to maximize throughput. (We will all be very happy when there is improved technology to upgrade/replace :) ).

To scale up data throughput, look at channel isolation (3Ghz and 5Ghz gives a lot more channel options) with localized cell coverage areas (to avoid channel contention elsewhere) and channel isolation hopping through mid-mile, mountain, or hub relay sites.

Joe AE6XE    
AE6XE
AE6XE's picture
The OLSR route decision will
The OLSR route decision will always pick the DtDlink to send traffic instead of the RF link, given the choice of 2 paths between 2 nodes.   The DtDlink path is "0.1" cost and the RF path, if perfect, is the higher cost of "1".     You should be seeing the TxMbps always '0' for the RF path because it never gets traffic routed over the link to sufficiently measure the throughput.

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