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How to Power Water Tower Deployment

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KV3T
KV3T's picture
How to Power Water Tower Deployment
Hey Team,
The Chicago CAREDN group is planning to deploy on a water tower this summer.  The current plan is three nodes, a point to point, and two sectors.  Plus a PTZ IP camera.  The water tower is 180' tall, and we plan to deploy at the very top.  By the time the cables are run, we are probably going to be somewhere between 230 and 250' from the power source.  I've done a bunch of looking and have settled on a Mikrotik powerbox pro to power them all, and am leaning toward the basebox5 for the nodes.  That device needs 57v in, and with that can power the rest of the nodes.  Total power consumption should be 36w for the nodes, plus another 25w for the camera.

The IP camera is PoE at compliant, and for the nodes, I'm planning on using the Ubiquiti instant PoE adapters so that I can use the higher voltage as as much as possible, and only step it down to the passive poe at each of the nodes.

Do I have to run class 1 120vac and put the power adaptor up on top of the water tower, or can I put in like 60vdc at the ground and run it class 2 up the water tower? 

Or do I just bite the bullet, spend more money, and run each ethernet line up the tower individually?

We are  using the ubiquiti tough cable pro as we already have most of a spool from a past installed, but we would need another spool to homerun all of them.

I'm trying to figure out what are the best solutions, and then figure out the most economical of those to go with.
K6CCC
K6CCC's picture
For that length, you are
For that length, you are likely going to be iffy trying to power three nodes and a PTZ camera over a single Ethernet cable.  You could try it (on the ground), but I would not hold my breath...  Assuming you don't need Ethernet at ground level from any of the devices, you could try running the just under 60 volts over a heavier cable, and then in a small junction box at the top connect that to the voltage regulators you already mentioned to get the correct passive POE to the nodes.
 
AB7PA
Everything depends on the

Everything depends on the design of the water tower.  With all of the equipment installed on the top there is a greater chance for interference, and the radios are not typically able to provide coverage for areas close to the tower.  One option might be to separate the sector nodes down along the side of the water tower if that is permitted.  Those sectors should provide coverage closer to the tower, and they should be shielded from each other and the other equipment on top of the tower.  An option for power might be to design a standalone solar power unit for each node, so that they are not dependent on cable locations for power.  Just a thought.

KV3T
KV3T's picture
Here are a few images of the
Here are a few images of the tower. It is sparsely populated, and the city doesn't have any additional plans to add anything at this time. The only other items at the top are two repeater Antennas maintained by our club. It does appear that there is some cellular but they are much lower at the tower: http://nextcloud.caseydiers.com/index.php/s/HZXN3HnycjHJcxP http://nextcloud.caseydiers.com/index.php/s/HtQYgmtXWBZPWnr http://nextcloud.caseydiers.com/index.php/s/4cAyTEdHatjkdtY I don't need ethernet to the ground, although it would be nice just in case. The powerbox pro has a barrel connector for power. I could run an ethernet for data and a separate power run to a regulator as discribed above. Does anyone have any practical experience with this strategy? I did think about solar, and I'd love to be able to make that happen, but i fear that ups the expense and complexity of the install beyond what we can handle right now. I'm already nervous about the time it will take to install, because we need a chaperone from the city to work on the water tower and i don't want to stretch that relationship anymore than i have to. We can access the service building, just can't go up the tower without them.
KM4TBQ
KM4TBQ's picture
Power Consumption?!
Where are you getting those power consumption numbers? I've been testing for months in preparation of our upcoming installs, and I'm getting numbers between 3-5 watts for the nodes. The reason I ask- the only thing I'm worried about is if the nodes use way more power if they are farther apart. Since all mine are within a few yards of each other, the power numbers do not even increase when I max out the TX power or stream 4 cameras simultaneously. Did you actually measure 25 watts from a PTZ cam? Because I'm drawing maybe 6 watts, and that's with the IR on. You have me worried that I'm grossly under-purchasing batteries and panels. Thanks,
KV3T
KV3T's picture
From the manufacturer
From the manufacturer specifications for the device. That value should be the absolute maximum that could ever be theoretically consumed by the device. The ip camera is a Sunba something or other.



TThat does bring up a good point. I work in an.... Electrically adjacent field. I'm neither an engineer nor an electrician but I work with both every day. I'm used to using that value as it is how an engineer would size a circuit, but maybe I'm causing myself too much of a headache. Perhaps it would be more prudent to set the poe priorities such that the camera is last, and then just use standard poe at / af.
Thoughts?
I've also gotten some advice to look at 802.3bt, but that would add over 300 to the budget, and for the price i would be nearing the cost of a solar setup.
 
KD1HA
KD1HA's picture
Can you gain entry to the
Can you gain entry to the interior of the tower from the ground? If so there may be AC power at the topside. We have a newer tower and you can access the top though the center. We only used about 60-70 feet of cable. If you email me I will send you pictures.
KV3T
KV3T's picture
I don't think so, but I'll
I don't think so, but I'll double check.
Email sent.
 
nc8q
nc8q's picture
If so there may be AC power at the topside.
+1 Denis.
I was wondering the same thing.
How far is it to the closest 120VAC outlet to the top of the tank?

73, Chuck

 
KV3T
KV3T's picture
Hey All,
Hey All,
I just wanted to provide an update about how we plan to achieve this.

We verified that the nearest 120v outlet is at the base of the tower about 180' point to point, or about 220' as you can run a cable.  If there is an outlet at the top, and it doesn't seem like there is, then we are not going to be able to use it.

We are going to run a cable that has an ethernet bundled in with some additional dedicated current carrying conductors.  We are going to install a meanwell din rail power supply in the room at the base, and inject roughly 56vdc into the cable.  Worst case scenario, we will get about 50v out at the top.  In the powerbox pro switch / termination enclosure at the top, we will terminate those two conductors into the switch.  That switch will then have more than enough power to provide PoE to the rest of the devices up top.  Additionally, we will be able to monitor the network from the ethernet at the base of the tower, and can offer AREDN services at that location for the city.

All the best,
Casey
KV3T
 
KM4TBQ
KM4TBQ's picture
Late response apology
Man, I'm sorry I took so long to respond, I forgot to "subscribe" to this thread, and I never saw "new" when I was checking in on other things here. PHEW, I'm glad you were going on "lawyer numbers", because I really was worried about range affecting power usage, and that I was going to have to buy 5-8 times the batteries. Thankfully, I couldn't find any info that substantially debunked my measurements, and I'm glad I haven't been wasting my time for four months testing all this solar/battery equipment. Don't scare me like that!

So, it looks like you're going grid power. However, If you decide to do solar, and want some of my test numbers, then let me know, (arednog@proton.me). I haven't cleaned up these reports I've been doing, but I've run your proposed setup more than a couple times, and can provide some raw numbers if you want. I currently have my hands full with 50 other things launching this mesh in my own town, but I made sure to long-term test the panels and batteries to death...I know batteries are always the weak point. A local electronics company said that I was so cool and handsome, (not as handsome as Chuck), and they sold me (7) 24 volt/80 watt panels, (that actually hit 101.5 watts) for $60 each, (minus the first test one, it was a whopping $70, (They couldn't sell them for some reason, and I was told their cost was $161...and yes, they are also enthusiastic about getting a node installed on their strategically placed building)). That $70 test panel has been running a hAP, (LAN and mesh RF on), a Rocket M5 and a PTZ cam since 03/13/23, and I'm convinced the setup would run indefinitely- It maxes out at maybe 10 watts for half a second, ( .25 amps is avg day draw, and .36 amps is the highest I've recorded, which was at night with IR blasting).

I also finally found a LEGIT used LiFePO4 battery vendor, (near you actually), and have purchased 13+ from him so far, (after I was impressed with the first round of testing during the winter outside...yes we actually got cold this year in TN...for a day or so). They're grade A, 20 aH/12 volt, and I pay ~$55 each shipped/taxed. I'm building/testing: 24 volt (2 in series) and 12 volt (2 parallel w/24v boost) pairs, and I always get over 18 aH, (~16 aH when it was 10-25 degrees that one day). I see no measurable loss from the boosts/bucks. Let me know if you need his info or the test data from the past 4+ months.

It sounds like you've got things handled up there in C*****, but I gotta get out of here before someone sees me talking to a C*****ian. I share your happiness and concerns, as we're doing the same thing... just here is in God's country, so I'm sort of cheating.
Hope everything works out, and updates are greatly appreciated. -Thomas-
 
kj6dzb
kj6dzb's picture
Have you thought about

Have you thought about running a R6 https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-edgemax-control-points/products/edgepoint-r6 (I can ship you a used one if you would like)

It sounds like your all ready going that route! Run a 2 conductor cable with a shield and drain lead "ground it". Select an adjustable 24v power supply that will alow you to adjust the voltage, at the top of the tower (with a LOAD). 

I think that one of the "control point" units will alow for internal selection of between 24v poe and 48v poe for ports. EP-R8!!!
https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-edgemax-control-points

keep in mind that you could also run fiber Optic up the leg of the tower. 

73 de kj6dzb Mathison



 

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