Hello Members,
My day job is a network engineer/security engineer. I have been reading up on the network setup for AREDN but still have a few questions about how it operates and a few feature questions that I can't seem to locate in the forums. So here we go.
1. How do you setup high speed backbone with this system? I see via the documentation you can setup access points but what is the best way to setup high speed links between sites or AP points. I think of high speed as 100 Mbps or greater on a backbone. Can you combine links say one is the upstream and the other is the downstream?
2. When distance is an issue is there a way to setup a node to become a bridge to keep the signal strength up and thus the speed up? Similar to how a ham radio repeater might have a RF link between sites to get it to the system when a 50 watt link will not get it directly?
3. Is there a way to deploy the nodes via static IP's vs having a DHCP setup turned on. I'm use to assigning the IP's in a regular system so I know where the nodes are at in the network and if the device reboots I don't have to worry about it getting a new IP by accident or the wrong IP.
4. Monitoring the system seems like a good idea to do but I have read it might eat up a lot of bandwidth? Does the system have SNMP available to poll the nodes? This goes back about setup static IP's as polling the node you know which one it belongs too.
Thanks!
Steven Harvey
N8RLW
Mount Vernon, Ohio
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High Speed Backbone Nodes
Tue, 01/12/2021 - 15:25
#1
High Speed Backbone Nodes
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Hi, Stephen:
'High Speed Backbone Nodes '
My definition of a backbone is a linear end-to-end network wherein each node communicates with its neighbor node and every 'backbone' node is on the same channel.
Is this what you seek?
"I see via the documentation you can setup access points"
Nodes may be configured as a Wi-Fi Access Point, a Wi-Fi Client, or a node.
(Some indoor devices have 2 radios and one may be configured as a node and the other a Wi-Fi AP or Client.)
"what is the best way to setup high speed links between sites"
IMHO, Point-to-point links on a non-shared channel.
"or AP points."
APs do not communicate with APs, only clients.
AREDN nodes are in 'ad-hoc' state.
"I think of high speed as 100 Mbps or greater on a backbone. "
These devices use 801.11n, so, yeah, 100 Mbps is high speed. (Absolute maximum is 144.4 Mbps(raw).)
"Can you combine links say one is the upstream and the other is the downstream?"
Call them what you want. These links are radio circuits on the same channel/bandwidth so figure half-duplex.
"When distance is an issue is there a way to setup a node to become a bridge to keep the signal strength up and thus the speed up? "
There is extremely low latency. I see no advantage between a bridge and a back-to-back router.
"Similar to how a ham radio repeater might have a RF link between sites to get it to the system when a 50 watt link will not get it directly?"
I am ignorant about what a 'system' is in repeater RF links.
"Is there a way to deploy the nodes via static IP's vs having a DHCP setup turned on."
DHCP plays no part in AREDN node-to-node linking.
The firmware 'system' is intended to be auto-adaptive discovery and routing, thus
there are no 'Network Engineer' knowledge requirements nor Network Engineer programmability.
"I'm use to assigning the IP's in a regular system so I know where the nodes are at in the network and if the device reboots I don't have to worry about it getting a new IP by accident or the wrong IP."
The ARDEN 'system' will break you of that good habit. ;-)
Note that this (AREDN) is an open system an assumes that
a new node may appear at any time or an existing node may disappear.
AREDN firmware will, automagically, attempt to recover.
"Does the system have SNMP available to poll the nodes?"
Yes.
"This goes back about setup static IP's as polling the node you know which one it belongs too."
Every node must have a unique domain name (Node Name) when set up.
AREDN firmware will assign an IP address, but you may override.
Again, this is intended to be an open system, so letting Non-Network Engineers assign IP addresses may not prove fruitful. :-|
I hope this helps,
Chuck
Using the Rocket 5AC Prism Gen2 im expecting 662Mbps 80MHz --- 74Mbps 10MHz @55km.
and LiteBeams 5AC G2 expecting 66Mbps @ 10mhz --448Mbps @ 80mhz @28.4km.
The AIRFiber 5xhd out preforms the Prism equipment for thruput 1094Mbps @ 100MHz ---138Mbps @ 10MHZ @ 55km.
--ANTENNAS--
I looked at the AF-5G34-S45 (34dBi) and The MonsterDish (37dBi) but the cost for 3dbi isnt worth the gain for our path loss.
Configuring the stock LiteBeams 5AC G2 to pass the DTD tagged packets, and for the LiteBeams 5AC G2 to sit on the Mesh LAN, was not difficult. It dose require an edgeswitch.
(Some indoor devices have 2 radios and one may be configured as a node and the other a Wi-Fi AP or Client.)"
There is a very basic question I have not seen answered directly in the documentation. Maybe I missed it.
Once AREDN firmware is loaded onto a part 15 device, making it part 97 capable, is it still:
a) legal for it to also operate as a part 15 device?
b) technically possible for it to also operate as a part 15 device?
Closest answer I found was under "Configuration Deep Dive" which is not likely clicked by someone just testing the waters.
Enable/Disable Mesh Radio and WAN Column
"AREDN® is an FCC Part 97 amateur radio network, so be sure that any traffic which will be sent over the radio complies with FCC Part 97 rules. If you want local wireless Internet access, consider using an FCC Part 15 access point instead of the node’s WAN gateway."
People do not necessarily know how their home WiFi routers function in the RF domain despite having familiarity with configuring them. It might be reasonable (but incorrect) to assume that a 2.4GHz unit capable of addressing several 2.4GHz channels can talk to AREDN nodes on channel -1 and seamlessly bridge that traffic to WiFi client devices like phones over channel 6. I suspect this is the functionality many are after.
Many devices are advertised as MIMO, Multi In, Multi Out. So this kind of use case makes some amount of sense. If AREDN cannot do that, or requires a second band or second box to do that, it is perceived as a lack of functionality that their home routers already have (so they think). It is not clear if WiFi radios in general can channel hop, store and forward, or do a number of other things that may be incorrectly inferred from the MIMO label. I'm sure that was by design (marketing), but if the AREDN docs do not disambiguate, and warn users of their unreasonable expectations, users may spend time and money only to be disappointed.
"Comparing SISO and MIMO Radios" does not address this at all. It immediately gets in the technical weeds.
AREDN® Overview
The one FAQ I absolutely expected to be answered here is "Can I use my favorite apps on AREDN?" After reading the whole page, I don't know. Maybe "Applications and sevices guide" will answer that question.
AREDN® Services Overview
Nope, still don't know. It mentions a bunch of specific apps, but are those the only ones that work on AREDN? Everyone's phone already has a messaging app, will it work? How?
- An important consideration for selecting programs is to understand the impact each service will have on the performance and reliability of the network during the times when digital communication is required. As a best practice, choose programs which require the least amount of computing and network resources in order to operate successfully.
Oh, to understand whether an app will work on the network, we need to understand... whether an app will work on the network. Its recursive.Its the common curse of all technical writing. You write "do it properly", because you already know how to do it properly. In your mind, "properly" has a very clear definition with specific precautions, guidelines, and concepts that go without saying. Unfortunately that leaves the basics unsaid, only documenting the tricky bits.
Sorry for the off topic rant. Not trying to be disrespectful, just highlighting some pain points. People HATE my writing style, so I probably should not be offering writing advice.
"Once AREDN firmware is loaded onto a part 15 device, making it part 97 capable, is it still:
a) legal for it to also operate as a part 15 device?
b) technically possible for it to also operate as a part 15 device?"
Just the same as it is legal and millions of devices operating with OpenWrt or opensource firmware loaded around the world, it is legal to do the same with AREDN. A significant issue that applies is that part 15 certification is required to market and sell devices in the US. OpenSource firmware replacement on a device, isn't being sold again. However the owner-operator would still need to ensure compliance and could still be fined for operating outside part 15 rules. The FCC, in fining TP-Link for part 15 violates with equipment they were selling, were told to ensure they allowed opensource firmware to be installed on their devices -- this clarified the FCCs position given lack of specific rules. The focus with TPlink FCC mandated actxions, was to prevent allowing operators of their firmware to change setting outside of part 15 compliance. If operating with part 97 rules, then to follow, the callsign needs to be transmitted accordingly, to declare you are following part 97 rules -- this could be in a shared part 15 channel, but using higher power, for example.
"Many devices are advertised as MIMO"
MIMO is one of many features of the 802.11n/ac specification and is only relevant on a device with 2 or more antennas. This specification is implemented in a wireless chip in hardware for the core building blocks (a DSP, signal detection, etc.). Generally, It's the firmware that can change timing, channels, bandwidth, etc. Any firmware loaded on the device, opensource or the manufactor's, is still using the same specification and MIMO features -- no difference in this regard, it's still the same hardware. SISO comparison is not comparing between different vendor's firmware, rather comparing how the signal is different between a 1 antenna device and a 2+ antenna device with an 802.11n/ac chipset, regardless whose firmware is controlling the hardware -- the title is comparing "radios", so maybe changing the word 'radio' to 'device hardware' or similar may help to clarify.
Regarding the documentation...
"understand the impact each service will have on the performance"... "choose programs which require the least amount of computing and network resources". I'm not following that this is circular logic. This says to me, that I'd need to investigate the services-applications-programs I want to use to understand how much traffic they will be sending over the network, then choose ones that minimize the network traffic. Re-wording suggests are helpful.
Joe AE6XE
Some part 15 requirements only applying to the sale of a device and not necessarily the use of a device was a vital detail I overlooked.
Regarding MIMO, I explained my point badly. The documentation advice to consider using an additional device for part 15 communications was being contrasted with part 15 MIMO devices able to bridge wireless wan to wifi devices with a single box.
What's missing from "understand the impact each service will have on the performance"... "choose programs which require the least amount of computing and network resources" is how. How do we know if a particular program "require(s) the least amount of computing and network resources"? We only know by observing its impact on performance and comparing it to the performance of other programs. That is circular. The entire section could be replaced by "If you want to know if a program will work, try it." The section does not list any minimum requirements or guidance on how to identify acceptable programs. It would be helpful to list some indications of a resource hungry program. What happens when RAM is exhausted? What happens when processor is overloaded? Ways to configure programs for better performance?
Logically, there can only be one single program which "requires(s) the least amount of computing and network resources. Is the documentation saying we should only run that single program? Which one is it?
"The documentation advice to consider using an additional device for part 15 communications was being contrasted with part 15 MIMO devices able to bridge wireless wan to wifi devices with a single box."
Hi, Dustin:
Not necessarily in order of importance, but:
Your topic deserves its own forum thread, i.e. not a subtopic of "High Speed Backbone Nodes"
I do not see that MIMO has anything to do with 'bridge wireless wan to wifi devices'.
In your first post you stated "Once AREDN firmware is loaded onto a part 15 device", so,
if we are only referring to AREDN capable devices,
is the Mikrotik RB952Ui-5ac2nD the only device capable to 'bridge wireless wan to wifi devices with a single box'?
This does not, necessarily, involve MIMO.
Above is the single box solution.
The 'additional box for part 15 communication' example is connecting the LAN port of an AREDN device to the WAN port of a part 15 Wi-Fi Access Point.
This does not, necessarily, involve MIMO.
In your first post:
"(Some indoor devices have 2 radios and one may be configured as a node and the other a Wi-Fi AP or Client.)"
Only the Mikrotik RB952Ui-5ac2nD fits this description.
That device may actually have 4 radios, 2 on 2.4 GHz and 2 on 5 GHz.
Other devices may have 2 radios, MIMO, and operate to increase throughput.
The 2 radios in MIMO service cannot be operated independently to 'span', 'bridge', or 'gateway' dissimilar networks.
i.e. MIMO radios use only one channel and bandwidth, and support only one of 'client', 'access point', or 'ad hoc'.
I think.
Chuck
On the mesh side of each device, all IP addresses are static, though the nodes will try to produce unique addresses with a formula built in to the firmware. It may not always do that successfully, as it's trying to generate a unique 24 bit address (AREDN Mesh uses the 10. RFC 1918 address space) from a 48 bit number. The node will prepopulate the generated IP address, but can be overriden if needed. It is generally recommended to NOT Change the address unless a conflict occours.
DHCP is only used from the node to the clients, and it can be turned off on a node if desired.
"The 2 radios in MIMO service cannot be operated independently to 'span', 'bridge', or 'gateway' dissimilar networks.
i.e. MIMO radios use only one channel and bandwidth, and support only one of 'client', 'access point', or 'ad hoc'.
I think."
I seem to remember that some fairly old models from Alfa could do AP and STA(client) mode simultaneously. Famously, for performing MITM attacks at Starbucks. I think both modes did have to use the same channel. Maybe I misunderstood, or conflated a specific model feature with MIMO in general. All AP as far as I know routinely bridge WiFi to LAN which is a dissimilar network. WISP routers are common now, doesn't that rely on MIMO? That is what I initially assumed AREDN was using. It isn't really important. I failed to make my point, don't know how to express it better, have no compelling reason to pummel this expired equine.
Our network in Middle GA suffers from lack of "high places" (no hills, very few tall buildings, lots of tall trees with foliage) but we have a few. We've attempting to assemble a "bridge" between stations that cannot get a signal, even tho only a mile apart. We started with 5.8 GHz devices and discovered very quickly that without several [bridge, gap-filler, hub] type stations, we're stuck with tunneling.
The specific question is how to (what primary AREDN meshable RF parts do I need) assemble a node something like the "HUB MESH NODE" image shown in KJ6DGB post to this discussion on 01/12/21? I'd like to build a small, self-contained package that I could put on a rooftop that would link distant nodes (users) and be able to work 2.4 GHz and 5.8 GHz paths.
sparks [ga-aredn-users@groups.io]
We can probably find a building or two to support it. Our local hosptial folks have assembled AREDN MESH nodes and one of the hospitals has a roof suitable.
Are you trying to link 2 AREDN sites ('A' and 'B') that cannot RF link with each other
by adding an AREDN site ('C') that can RF link with with 'A' and 'B' ?
An AREDN node is smarter than a 'hub' and smarter than a 'dumb' ethernet switch.
An AREDN node is smarter than a 'smart' ethernet switch.
An AREDN node can perform the functions of a ('hub' or 'switch') and more.
Chuck