Hi everyone!
For a long time, I had the idea to deploy a wireless network to link repeaters instead of relying on internet that is not that much reliable here when weather is bad. I also had discussion with many people including emergency services, fellow hams and communication experts of the area about how emcomms (analog only comms) are outdated with the way agencies works nowadays, so I would have linked our repeaters and then tested possible data links for emergency needs.
I was actually looking at a plain Ubiquity network but to have redundancy it would have required a lot of gear and 2 side-by-side network plus all the new gear, management and configuration needed each time a new node needs to be added. Then I started to look for mesh network and found AREDN. AREDN is exactly what I wish to have working.
Here is what we plan:
* Links our 3 main sites (about 50miles apart). Each main site will be linked with the 2others. If more deployment is made, we will try to always keep a minimum of 2 links for redundancy. A fourth site in the middle of the triangle will be established to enhance the connection later if needed/wished.
* Each main site will cover their area with 5Ghz for nodes and local relays (mid-miles?) with 3x120deg pannel.
* Relays (mid-miles?) will redistribute 5Ghz and 2.4Ghz in needed area across cities. Using 1x 5Ghz omni and 1-3x 120deg or omni 2.4Ghz depending on needed coverage.
* A tunnel server will also be available for deployment tests, while we install the wireless link, in case a main site wireless link goes down....
Here are some questions I would like to get answers for before buying gear and start testing...
1) Is there a way to assign an IP to a device and use that IP to connect to the device through the mesh? One piece of software we need to deploy for repeater linking only allows IP address. Or is there a way to indicate and IP in the software and have it translated to a node hostname ?
2) The 3 main sites we have are about 50miles apart in a triangle configuration. We wish to have another relay site in the middle to cope with weather, terrain and distance but I'd like to have direct contact between sites (it is actually plausible with terrain, but a relay is just one more chance to have the network working when things goes bad). Am I right to believe that using proper antenna it is possible to link 2 nodes in 2.4ghz (Channel -1) or should I start investigating 900mhz ?
3) What kind of setup would be required to link sites 50miles apart ?
4) What kind of speed can be reached with such long links ? Most traffic should happen locally except for repeater linking, depending on this, we may re-plan shorter links.
5) How far can 5Ghz with omni antenna reach between nodes ?
6) What kind of battery capacity is required to power an average node for 48hrs ? It is plan to have all main sites using battery as backup and maybe include solar panel for more uptime depending on location. The fourth site is planed as solar powered because it will sit on top of a mountain, it should host 3 high gain antenna pointed to the 3 firsts sites.
In the hope this is clear, English is not my primary language...
VA2XJM Jean-Michel AKA John for my English speaking friend!
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AREDN Implementation
Sat, 11/17/2018 - 21:49
#1
AREDN Implementation
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3) I have a 50 mile link across San Diego County running Ubiquiti RocketDish and M3 Rocket on each end.
4) It consistently gets ~50 Mbps. I believe you can expect similar results on 5GHz.
6) Each node draws ~300mA, so a cluster of 4 nodes would consume an entire 100AHr battery in about 83 hours (100AHr / 1.2A), Of course, you won't want to plan on running the battery down completely... 50% is a best practice. So you can plan on that 100 AHr battery taking you through a 41.5 hour outage. This assumes a 12 battery, and you may want to run a 12v to 24v DC-DC converter for longer cable runs. These nodes typically run on anything from 10.5 to 24 volts.
But remember, if you run multiple nodes on the same band, you will need at least 2 channels of separation between them. So don't think you can get away with 3 sector antennas on channel -1 at the same site... it won't work. Rather, choose 3GHz or 5GHz if you want to use that technique, where you have many more channels available for isolation.
I'll let the smarter guys on this forum tackle your other questions.
Good luck and welcome to AREDN. I'll look forward to hearing how this goes for you.
Andre, K6AH
yes, there is a way in AREDN setup to reserve an IP address that is DHCP assigned to a device and give it a hostname. This hostname and IP address is automatically propagated to all nodes in the network and usable everywhere.
2) it is possible to link 2 nodes in 2.4ghz (Channel -1) or should I start investigating 900mhz
We've found that 2.4GHz and 900MHz have the least channel options and 2.4GHz has the most noise. 3GHz (higher cost with limited device options) and 5GHz have the clearest channels and most channel options to use. Every link you engineer should have a unique channel assigned to ensure scalability and optimal performance. If you tried to put all these links on 2GHz in one channel, the performance will be marginal. Think dish P2P from each site to another with local Sector Panel 120deg coverage. The multiple nodes on each channel (or band) at each site route to each other over what we call a device-to-device cat5 cable or DtDlink though a local 802.1Q switch.
5) How far can 5Ghz with omni antenna reach between nodes ?
Omni antennas are best used for a local coverage area. MIMO or dual polarity devices are best to use and achieve higher performance as compared to single antenna devices. Realistic coverage areas should be no more than 5 miles using Omni MIMO IMO. Any farther out, if it were me, I'd go with 120deg Sector coverage.
6) What kind of battery capacity is required to power an average node for 48hrs
I run an offgrid site that has been up 24x7 for a couple of years. It has 3 mesh nodes, an IP cam, and a rasPi. The constant draw is slightly more than 1A on a 12v solar system. I found it best to put in a larger solar panel, in this case a 300+ Watt panel. It can generate ~1A in cloud cover to keep the site running indefinitely, and worse case goes out at night (which has not happened). It has 2 x 12v Walmart RV marine deep cycle batteries.
Joe AE6XE
To add some details, I do have the largest city to cover and it is not that large in facts... Call it rural area... So with 4 or 5 5Ghz nodes installed in a cross or X pattern with omni antenna I should be able to cover most of it at the rooftop level.
For clarifications, local coverage will be in 5Ghz for most of it. Local 2.3Ghz will be reserved for area where more obstacle penetration is required and should account for a really small part of the network or not be present at all.
For long distance, I was looking at 2.3Mhz because of the cost. It is cheaper than 3Ghz so if we decide to go with more sites, it would greatly reduce the price of the whole network, especially with the fact that I will pay myself for the links. Plus with new devices slowly moving to 5Ghz, I expect the 2.3Ghz band to become cleaner with time.
There is also the facts that since my area is not crowded has you guys encounters in big cities, it is already less noisy. In any case, HAM band above UHF are not in use in the area except for some sporadic testing, so that leaves us plenty of room to play with.
So if I follow properly, my station (home or mobile):
Each "main site":
- 2x Rocket M2
- 2x Rocket Dish (for selected band) + radome to protect the antenna from elements
- 1x Switch (same as above)
For testing purpose, I will get the links up one by one and experiment with it keeping in mind channel separation. Next step is to check spectrum congestion at the aimed sites to select the best channel possible to operate on!If anyone have something to add, do it!
Thanks again,
VA2XJM
"For long distance, I was looking at 2.3Mhz because of the cost"
The 5GHz equipment is same cost as the 2GHz.
If there are multiple P2P links on the same channel, then if 'any' energy is received across links, the performance can be significantly impacted. Even a weak signal can cause havac as the way 802.11 works using CSMA -- before transmitting the device does a clear-channel-assessment (CCA), if it detects any energy above noise floor, it randomly backs off and waits to try again. Only 1 link (half-duplex) and one direction can transmit data at a time contending for the channel with all the other links and mesh nodes that share the channel.
Joe AE6XE
Most network use a different band for backbone links from what I have read... Plus like I wrote earlier, the amateur band above 440mhz is not in use in my area... we are like 150amateurs in something like 22 000 square miles... Most doing HF/MF and almost everyone doing VHF/UHF but nothing else so far... So I pretty much have all the Amateur band to deploy...
In fact AREDN is more personal and 1 or 2 other will hope in with me but not many more... I will buy most of the gear to get the network up and running, and maybe then some amateur will hop in. With extended testing, maybe the civil security group may buy their gear if it proves to be more efficient than the actual analog repeater setup(I know it is not hard to beat, but it needs to work and be reliable to make them think about it).
P2P PBE-M5-620 ch 172 @ 10Mhz ~10 mile link to Laguna woods
P2P RocketDish 30dBi ch 176 @ 10Mhz ~40 mile link Yucaipa
120deg sector Rocket ch 170 @ 10Mhz ~Riverside and LA county coverage
120deg sector Rocket ch 174 @ 10Mhz Orange County coverage
Note that 3Ghz Ubqiuiti devices are really 5GHz motherboards with a -2GHz down-converter. We can occasional see signals cross band showing up in the wifi scan. We also have in close proximity, with no ill effects:
P2P RocketDish ch 3400 @ 10Mhz ~40 mile link to JPL Pasadena
120deg Sector Rocket ch 3430 @ 10Mhz Orange County and LA County coverage
Also, a 2GHz 120deg Sector rocket.
All sectors and some dishes have RF shielding to be good neighbors to the WISP operators. 802.11n signals have built in design to work nicely with or mitigate interference between adjacent signals. You have plenty of spectrum to further space out your channels. We have ATV on the higher channels in our area.
Joe AE6XE
Any recommendation for switches ? I am actually spotting the TL-SG108PE. Plenty of ports for expansion or devices and the POE makes less cables in the cabinets/cases. Plus it is wisely priced, not cheap, not expensive. I must also admit that since I use TP-Link at home I never had troubles or gear going dead...
I will order 3 switch, 3 bullets AC M5 with omni and play at home with 3 Raspberry Pi for testing before going further, anyway winter is here so it will leave plenty of time before deploying. When I can get a little mesh running, I will check to establish the first link. Anything else to add in the lot for proper testing ?
Thanks for your precious help!
The Bullet AC M5 is NOT supported with AREDN. Look for devices that are MIMO (dual-polarity) as they will perform better than single polarity devices.
Switches: I like the Netgear GS105E or GS108E. Other popular switches are Ubiquiti's ToughSwitch line.
The devices in the AREDN support matrix are considered the "AirMax" series. The older "XM" series are devices with even less memory and something else. In the support matrix, there are hot links to Amazon for many devices.
Joe AE6XE
Very useful! especially for remote sites... I will look for it!
Thanks!
Just following you post. Very interesting,
Dont know if you are aware that we have a Group called HamWan du Quebec. This group discuss all aspect of the Mesh network.
There is some node at Hospital Pierre Boucher on south shore of Montreal. Another one on Mt-Yamaska, One on Mt-Orford at 2800Ft. In the area of Gatineau they have a network also. Yesterday another one did popup North of Joliette.
It is groing up .
I put he Facebook link for the group,
I also maintain a Google Map with known Node.
I presently have 2 NanoBridge 5g with dish and a TP-Link 5g. I got lots of WRT54G, GS, GL also for the last mile or local acces.
We are trying to get everything on 5g as for the backbone, we have more channel to play with and will be using 2.4 only for local access.
So have a look at both sites
We also have one Guru expert that does it for living installing these Wifi. So we are lucky to have his inputs.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1671267483146727/
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_HsXm4vYfUUlBY3rtM9lVSDTO2BKud-i&usp=s...
73
Daniel
VA2DG (I am ok in QRZ)
Thanks :)